Sunday, March 28, 2010

Facing pages .125inch bleed on all...

Hello,



I am producing a 40 page, 8.5 by 5.5 inch mini magazine. The printer is insisting on .125 inch bleeds on all four sides of each individual page, not just the outer edge of the paper. When i complie the pdf with the use document bleed checked, and the bleed set as requested at .125 on all sides, I get portions of the facing page showing up on the other page. So for example, a left page will have a .125 inch section of the right page added to it.



Is this correct? The pages are folded so it doesn't seem like that's right. Do I have to manually slice the images that go across a spread and redo the layout without facing pages? I'm so confused. If the page isn't being cut in the middle, why do they need a bleed there? Sorry if this is too newbie and thanks for any tips!
Facing pages .125inch bleed on all...
That doesn't sound right. A 40 page magazine would only require ten sheets for saddle-stitching, which does not require inside bleed. I doubt the printer is binding using any other method.
Facing pages .125inch bleed on all...
It sounds like the printer is the newbie. As Scott says, a

saddlestitched document does not require inside bleed.



Bob

I totally agree with Scott and Bob, but if you really want to supply the pages with inside bleed, the easiest method, now that your layout is done, might simply be to go into Document setup and uncheck facing pages.



If you have mirrored master elements or similar differences on master pages, you'll need to select all the spreads first and override all master items in order to avoid having everything become a left-hand page.



Peter

You will have to deal with images crossing the spine by duplicating and cropping, I think.

Or just live with the wrong bleed on the inside edge. Presumably, if the printer is not merely intending to fold and saddlestitch, that material will disappear in the binding process.



Dave

%26gt;It sounds like the printer is the newbie.



I wonder if the OP in our current thread has represented the printer's case accurately.




AlFerrari, ''Image edges bleeding to next page when exporting'' #9, 7 Jan 2009 10:07 pm



Al

This is what the printer said,''If you are trying to design an inside spread you are able to design the inside pages as a spread (with bleeds on top, bottom, and either sides of the spread). You can include these 2 center pages in your multi-page PDF file. The other pages your are creating must include a bleed on all 4 sides.''



It's 10 sheets saddle stitched.

Find another printer. I have no idea what this guy is doing but he's

going to cause you no end of extra work.



Inside bleed is totally unnecessary for a saddlestitched document. Feel

free to point him here.



BTW, did you he give specifics on creating a PDF?



Bob

Thank you for quoting the Printer's directive. I assume that the printer's remarks are based on having seen your files. I would ask him why the center spread is acceptable as is while the other pages require additional treatment, and what other alternatives may be available. Do some or all of the non center spread pages have artwork that butts up against the spine? That may explain his request, see my comment to Bob below.



I agree with Bob that to comply with the printer's request would involve some additional work. But ''no end of extra work'' exaggerates it. This is what it involves:



http://indesignsecrets.com/breaking-pages-apart-to-bleed-off-a-spine.php



%26gt;Inside bleed is totally unnecessary for a saddlestitched document.



Bob, did you read the link I gave in #6? It explains why bleed at the spine

i may

indeed be necessary for a saddlestitched document.



Although we cannot tell from red8ii8's posts, the printer may be intending to impose the document using the creep method that moves pages away from the spine. If so, then the request for single pages with symmetrical bleed would indicate a well intended effort by the printer to properly achieve red8ii8's design idea, and would make it a very good reason to stay with this printer.



''Find another printer.'' is a cheap, self-serving comment made far too often in these forums. Do we suggest with equal frequency that the clients of those posting in these forums about problems they are having with their work need to find a new designer?



In the end, the successful completion of a print project results from the collaboration between designer and printer. So I encourage the OP to seek further in-depth discussion with the printer as to the reason for his request. If I have guessed correctly about outward creep adjustment being the motive for his request, the alternatives would be to creep the pages inward, or to have no creep applied. But I would not rule out other motives for the request.



In short, work with your printer.



Al

I read it...I'm not buying it.



I've done countless saddlestitched documents and have never supplied

anything but PDFs with no inside bleed.



It's wasted time and work to do it but it's not my call, just my advice.



If you don't mind doing a whole bunch of unnecessary work, then go right

ahead, but I stick to my statement. No way in the world I'd work with a

printer who made me do that.



Ten sheets of paper isn't enough to make creep an issue here and if

there were enough sheets we'd like be discussing perfect binding, anyway.



And yes, I put the same responsibility on a designer to supply files

that can be printed. How many times have you seen me recommend books or

videos to people who obviously have no training?



Bob

I'm going to break in here and put in my two cents as in Al's link that IF there is content butting the spine, but not crossing, then perhaps a bleed would be in order using creep, but if the content crosses the spine I think both bleed and creep would be very bad ideas as the reader would be faced with duplicate content down the narrow strip at the spine.



I tend to think that creep on 10 sheets is overkill, but I can understand why someone might want to use it. Personally, as I said in the other thread, I would try to avoid creating a design that has elements touching the spine anywhere except the center spread because I think it has too many negatives.



Peter

%26gt;And yes, I put the same responsibility on a designer to supply files %26#8232;that can be printed. How many times have you seen me recommend books or %26#8232;videos to people who obviously have no training?



But this is not the same as suggesting that such designers replace themselves with others more competent. Is it? So for designers, books and videos, but for printers, may the devil take the hindmost, eh? Not my idea of even handedness.



%26gt;I've done countless saddlestitched documents and have never supplied anything but PDFs with no inside bleed.



Well, if outward creep had been applied to those books, you would have seen white gaps near the spine for outer pages having objects butting the spine.



%26gt;Ten sheets of paper isn't enough to make creep an issue here and if %26#8232;there were enough sheets we'd like be discussing perfect binding, anyway.



Does this mean creep adjustment is a worthless procedure? Bear in mind that craftsmen strippers were doing this manually on light tables long before there was imposition software. The modern softwares make this much easier, therefore more commonly (not universally) practiced.



Note that I am only

i guessing

that this may explain the printer's motive. I agree that 10 bindery sheets generally may not merit this adjustment, and I indicated that in the other thread as well, but we have no concept yet of the page design in question. Depending on the design, outward creep may improve the look of a book done on a bulky 100# text.



You mention training. Well with sufficient training, the creep issue can be foreseen at the outset, so that the design can be developed incorporating such need so that there need not be any rework at the end. That is the point of pursuing this here.



Al

For this material, all but one spread will be no issue. I will of course supply the printer with what they are asking for and re-do the spread. I just wanted to see if I could figure out why they were asking for something that didn't seem to make sense, and see if I was maybe misunderstanding the facing pages feature of InDesign. I don't think I'm misunderstanding, I think they are covering all their bases and giving themselves the most options (which is fine with me). Thanks for the help!

%26gt; But this is not the same as suggesting that such designers replace themselves with others more competent.



No, it's not but you'll need to trust me when I tell you that I've

advised quite a few people that their designers should be replaced with

explanations as to why.



Bob

%26gt;For this material, all but one spread will be no issue.



Then you only need to apply the procedure from the link in #9 only to that one spread.



As for figuring out with any certainty why they are asking for this, it would be best to further your relationship with the printer by asking them about it. In this forum we can only make guesses about it.



Come back and let us know how the project turns out in the end. In addition to trying to help you, we have had the motive of improving our own skills by this discussion, so we would benefit in learning if we were near the mark at all.



Thanks,



Al

No problem! It's the weekend and I plan on calling them on Monday and will be submitting my files. I'm sure they'll explain it to me and I'll report back...

Sure, we all trust you Bob. But we also take note that with no particular knowledge about the printer here, and not the slightest effort to speculate about their possible motives for their requests to the OP you were about to do them out of a job.



Al

They were doing themselves out of the job by requesting a totally unnecessary but very inconvenient extra step from their client.



Let's say I'll only pump gas into your car at my gas station if you don't have any maps in your glove box. The location of maps and the contents of the glove box have nothing to do with pumping gas, but I'm just a stubborn dick and that's the way I play it. Would you come down of Bob if he told people to go across the street to Chevron instead of dealing with me?



Not a fair comparison, because it's really not much of a bother to take the maps out for a few minutes.

I may have...but at the same I time someone far more deserving would

have gotten it and our OP wouldn't have to jump through hoops.



Bob

And the answer is... the reply i got was incorrect. The bleed is only required on the outer edges, not interior. Thanks goodness!

I don't know what's more appropriate here..sigh or oy!



Bob

Anyone want to set odds that the first answer came from sales and the second from the prepress department? :)

Count me out.



Bob

Thanks for the follow up red8ii8. So this printer indeed deserves your business. They'll never know how hard Bob was pulling for them.



Peter is probably right that sales may have mucked it up.



Al

Now who's making assumptions?



For all we know the OP totally misunderstood what was relayed to him or

the information was incorrectly relayed by a poorly trained representative.



In any case I stand by what I said...Any printer demanding an inside

bleed for a 40 page saddlestitched book should be avoided.



And any printer who can't be bothered to properly train their staff

deserves to lose business to those that can communicate with customers.



Let me pose this question to you, Al...If someone gave poor instruction

to a customer on your behalf...instructions that caused the customer to

to do all kinds of unnecessary work and wound up submitting files that

caused you all kinds of unnecessary work, how would you feel?



Incompetence comes in all forms. Communication is very very important

and it sounds like someone failed somewhere.



Bob

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