Rearranging pages replaces changed...

I have a big problem.

I am using InDesign CS on Windows XP (get the tech specs out of the way first) to make a document. In my Master Pages, some of the objects are permanent, and some are intended as place holders, such as the text box for each page's content text. These place holders, I then ctrl-shift-click on within the document, overriding them in order to update them with the content specific to that page. So far, so good....

The problem comes when I try to rearrange pages in the Pages palette. As soon as I move any page from one spot in the layout to another (for instance, taking page 7 and moving it to be between what are currently pages 4 and 5), InDesign resets the Master objects for all of the pages that got shifted as a result of the page move. So, let's say that page 6's Master had a place holder text box that said ''text goes here'', and I had overridden the text box to type in page 6's content. If page 6 gets moved to a different position in the pages layout, then suddenly, the text box with my new text is still on the page, but the original Master text box (''text goes here'') is back as well!

Now, I realize that I'm probably just missing an obvious setting somewhere (like ''Reapply Master On Page Move'', or something like that), so if anyone could PLEASE tell me where that setting is, I would be incredibly grateful, since this problem is kind of putting a huge crimp in my ability to finish my project. Thanks.
Rearranging pages replaces changed...
This is really expected behavior. Master pages are best used for things that will appear on multiple pages in the same position (as you are doing), but when you start to use, and override, placeholders you introduce the problem of re-creating master items any time the master page is changed or reassigned, as when pages are shuffled.



My personal recommendation is to NEVER use placeholders on pages you think might move to the other side of a spread. In fact, most of the time placeholder text frames (and even image frames) are more of a hindrance than a help. Properly setup guides are much more useful.



Unlike Quark, which I'm guessing may be what you're used to, you don't need a pre-existing frame to place any sort of content in InDesign. New frames are created on the fly if there isn't one there already (and sometimes even if there is, but we'll get there), and how those on-the-fly frames are created is entirely predictable, if not controllable.



If you want to use a placeholder on the master page, most times there is no need to manually override onto the page. The exceptions would be if the frame already has content in it or you want to paste text instead of placing it. Simply hovering over an empty master frame with the loaded ''place gun'' cursor will put that content into the frame and override it in one step (and this is somewhat important for auto-flowing text across multiple frames -- if you override first, you detach the frame from the thread). You can place into non-master frames the same way.



If you aren't using an existing frame, on-the-fly behavior depends on the type of object and what you do with the mouse. For any object type, clicking and dragging defines the frame boundaries. In CS4 dragging an image frame keeps the frame in the same aspect as the image, and scales the image to fit, which I happen to like, but there are a few who don't, so they need to draw their frames first. A simple click for a graphical object will draw the frame with the upper left corner at the spot you clicked, and the frame will be the size necessary to hold the object at ''100%'' scale.



Text works a little differently, and this is where margin and column guides come into play. As above, you can place into an existing frame or drag one to suit, but if you just click on the page somewhere InDesign will draw a frame that starts with its top edge at the point you click, but the frame will fill the width of the current column guides and extend to the bottom margin guide. If you hold shift to autoflow a long bit of text, subsequent frames will start at the top margin guide, and ID will add frames across a multi-column page before adding a new one if necessary.



New pages are added based on the master of the last page in the thread that exists at the time the page is created, so if you have master frames on both sides of a spread, but they are not threaded together, you'll see blank pages created and your text will jump to the next page that has a frame in the right spot (hard to visualize, but you'll recognize the problem instantly when it happens).



Essentially, this means that there is almost no reason whatever to put a text frame on a master page unless it need to be there to hold repetitive text of some sort. If you've overridden one of these master frames and then try to auto-flow into it, it's no longer threaded into the other frames (if it ever was), and InDesign is going to create the new frames based on the rules for filling column guides (which may or may not look like your master scheme), but more importantly, the other master frames will not be used and are still lurking in the background.



The big problem with this is if you expect some edit on the master page to ripple through to the live pages you will be very surprised when it doesn't (any attribute you don't change on an overridden master frame remains linked to the master, so you can change the shape or position of the frame on the master page and the same change will happen on the live page if all you did was put some content into it).



Which brings us to Layout Adjustment, and again the importance of proper guides. Frames that touch guides are pretty reliably moved or resized when layout adjustment is enabled before you do something like change the page margins.



Hope you managed to get through all of this and found it helpful.



Peter
Rearranging pages replaces changed...
Phew! Okay, I'm a little rusty (and yes, I'm coming from Quark...through no fault of my own), so please help spell it out for me. If I want text always to appear within the same area on each page (so I don't want to have to recreate the text box to size every single time), but I want the text itself to be different, then which of the multiple methods you listed should I be using?

Thanks for the (clearly very knowledgeable) help.

Use Autoflow. Delete all your pages except the first two (you're going

to lose any frames you've drawn there), delete the placeholder frames

from the master page, delete all the frames on the second page, go to

the first page, press the ''out'' port button at the bottom right, go to

the second page and Shift-click the loaded cursor at the top left margin

corner.



This should autoflow new, live frames in new pages to the end of the

text flow.



--

Kenneth Benson

Pegasus Type, Inc.

www.pegtype.com

I think we need some more detail about what you are doing.



Is this isolated text on each page, rather than a continuous story? If so, then a placeholder frame might make sense on the master page. When I do that, I usually put in some dummy text, too so I can see it. But then you'll continue to have problems with swapping masters when you repaginate.



Frankly, I don't think there's really a GOOD way to deal with that situation, though you might want to read about ''snippets'' and libraries in the help files. In theory you could make and format a frame in the position you need and save it in a library or snippet, and when you place it back into a document you should have the option of putting it where you drop it or having it maintain its original position on the page. Edit: Using the library or snippet route takes the frame off the master page and requires you place it on each page.



If this is running text, get rid of any master frames related to it and be sure your margin guides are set so a frame of the correct size you want to use completely fills them. You can mirror the margins if you like and want to use a different margin inside and outside. If you do this, be sure to enable Layout Adjustment in the Layout menu.



At this point, Ken's suggestion is probably the easiest way to get things back on track.



Peter

Yeah, Peter, I think that the confusion here is that the text on each page is isolated, rather than being a continuous, pretyped story. Instead, this is more of a workbook, but still the text is going into the same space on each page.

The placeholder frame with dummy text (in appropriate header and body formats on separate lines) that you describe is exactly what I was going for, and the repagination problem is exactly what I'm facing. I guess that I'll just put blank text frames into the Master Pages, then override them to fill them in on each page. That way, repagination, at worst, will place an extra blank frame behind the active one. Oh well.

Personally, I don't understand why you're allowed to override Master objects if they're going to try to replace themselves upon page rearrangement.

Anyway, thanks to both of you for your help.

CS4 has a new feature that will add pages as you type. CS has no such

feature. You have to make the pages, then make the frames on the pages.

I think I would want to type the material first, then format it into

pages after it's been typed. I would thread all my frames together,

using Keeps or frame breaks to force text to new pages.



I didn't know that rearranging pages reasserts master items, but this is

just another one of the many reasons I avoid overriding master items (in

fact, why I avoid overrides in general).



At this point, I think your master page placeholder frames are doing you

no good. Remove them, and they should get removed from all pages on

which they have not been overridden (including the pages on which they

have been overridden and then reasserted).



Why are you rearranging pages?



--

Kenneth Benson

Pegasus Type, Inc.

www.pegtype.com

I'd make a blank text box on the master.



Then I'd load a cursor with text and click over that text box on the

live page to create a new text box filled with text not linked to the

master box.

Simon,



Are you making fun of me?



A loaded cursor over a blank master frame will use the master frame (unless you happen to click on a guide -- don't go there), not create a new, unlinked frame.



Peter

Peter,



I would never make fun of you. Never.



But it works for me. The text takes the attributes of the text box on

the master but is divorced from it. Switch left and right pages, it

stays put. Shuffle pages, it stays put. Am I not understanding what was

asked for?



Humbly yours and not jesting.

I bet your frame is sized to the page margins or column guides.



If you move that frame out of the way for a second, after you put text into it I also bet you can't Ctrl + Shift click to release the master frame on your page, because it's already released and has your new text in it.



Undo the move, and rearrange the pages so they swap sides. If the margins are uneven, the frame should jump to match the margins.



Now here's the tricky part. Make a new three-page document. Start with a master text frame on each page of a two page spread, and be sure the left is threaded to the right (should work if you just check the master text frame box).



Go to page 1 and either release the frame and type or place some external text (not more than will fit in the frame).



Click a text insertion point into the frame on the right master page and type something, like ''sample text'' so it will show up on the pages. Note that even though you clicked on the right-hand page the text is at the top of the left hand frame because they are threaded.



Go to page 1. There is no master text showing because it is on the left master page and page 1 is a right page. Now drag page 2 so it swaps positions with page 1. You should see the text in the master frame behind the text you put originally on page 1 which is now page 2, which shows that the master items are re-asserted on the page swap. Interestingly, if you now swap pages 2 %26amp; 3, there will again be no master frame behind your overridden one.



Peter

I haven't actually checked this, but I would guess you'd see pretty much the same thing if the master frames are not threaded, i.e. when you swap left to right, whichever side is not original is going to pick up all the master elements, including any that were originally overridden.



What seems to be happening is that ID is keeping track of what has and hasn't been overridden on a left-or-right basis, but I don't claim to know anything about the file structure or coding.



Peter

It's a diddy little text box miles from any guides or margins.



And after I move the new text box on the live I can still see the

outline of the master text box on the master page.



But now I've got to go walk to dog and meet the wife. Have a great weekend.

Well that's pretty odd.



You are talking about using a loaded cursor, right, as in external text or picked up overset text, not a regular text cursor as in paste copied text or new text to be typed?



The only way I can make a loaded cursor NOT use a master frame is if there's already content in it or I click exactly on the top or left margin guide, or on a ruler guide that crosses the frame (which trips up a lot of students and isn't well documented anywhere I've seen), or I click outside it entirely, of course.

Every time there's a discussion on InDesign's master page behavior, there's always a lot of confusion. InDesign's master page usage is anything but intuitive. Master objects (ncluding text frames) are extremely under-tapped in their potential. I've been working on a product which tries to fix this... Here's an excerpt from a manual of a soon-to-be released product which (attempts) to explain how master text frames behave:



%26gt;When the side of a page changes in CS3 and later, an overridden master frame is not actually detached from the master page. It is attached to a master item which doesnt really exist. You can look at it as if every page has all the items of an entire master spread on it, but only the items which corresponds to the current page side are actually visible. When the page side changes, even overridden master items (even though they are now visible) are still attached to the invisible master page items. This can result in doubling of master items. If for example a recto page with overridden recto master items becomes a verso page, the overridden recto items will be visible as well as the non-overridden verso ones.



and here's an excerpt on how we go about fixing InDesign's behavior...



%26gt;Master Threads are a novel concept, so it might take a bit of time to get it, but the potential of using Master Threads is enormous, so its well worth the time spent learning what Master Threads are, and how they can be used.



%26gt;Simply put, Master Threads are Master Text Frames which are assigned to a specific thread of text frames.

Normally, Master Text Frames can be threaded, but only with other text frames on the same master spread. It is not possible to thread master text frames from Master A to Master B. Therefore if flowing text, and the master page applied changes fro page to page, there is no way of dictating which text frames, the text will occupy. Additionally, when a master page is changed and a new one is applied, any Master Text Frames will be detached from the master page. Master Text Frames in InDesign can be described as static objects, that once overridden from the master page have very little to do with the original object they started out being.



%26gt;Master Threads were created to overcome these shortcomings. When Master Text Frames are designated as being Master Thread Frames, they have the ability of being threaded across master pages, so a text frame (or thread of frames)on Master A can be associated with a text frame (or thread of frames) on Master B. Additionally, Master Thread Frames can be described as dynamic as opposed to the standard static Master Text Frames. These two properties of Master Threads open up exciting new possibilities.



%26gt;Lets explain some more. Master Threads are created by naming a master text frame or thread of master text frames. The name can be anything, but once you name the text frames, they are defined as belonging to a Master Thread of the name you chose. It is only possible to use a specific name once per master spread. Text frames which have the same Master Thread name on different spreads will be defined as belonging to the same Master Thread. In this way, it is possible to create virtual threading between different master pages. You can create an infinite number of Master Threads in each document, which enables parallel flowing of stories (i.e. you can have two separate stories which flow side by side, or top and bottom, etc.).

But What do They do?



%26gt;Once Master Threads are properly set up, they can be used to intelligently flow text. When used in conjunction with Master Page Links, Master Threads can change the positioning and flow of text based as master pages switch between different ones. When the text is flowed and master pages are switched to match the linked paragraph styles, the text will flow into the corresponding text frames on the new master page which correspond to the text frames on the previous master page. This correlation is created by naming both sets of text frames with the same Master Thread name.



%26gt;This combination of master page linking and Master Threads enable the complete automatic flowing of entire books even where master pages must change to reflect the text and even where chapter openers must be placed in different locations than body text. This is true even if chapter openers are set up as single column text while the body text is set up as two columns.



%26gt;In addition to the automatic layout made possible while initially flowing text, Master Threads can transform master pages from being simply a starting point for layout into true dynamic page templates. When text frames are defined as Master Threads, the text contained by them will automatically reflow into new text frames any time the master page changes or the page side changes. This means, you can drastically change the layout of your text by simply applying a different master page. With one click of the mouse, or by dragging a master page on a local page in your pages panel, you can rearrange your layout! No more manually reflowing text when you see a need to change the master pageeven if your text does not fit the page margins!

Harbs,



This sounds fantastic! How soon do you expect to release it?



Oh, and was I at least close in my analysis?



Peter

%26gt;This sounds fantastic! How soon do you expect to release it?



Pretty soon... (I hope!) If you want to try it out, drop me a line. There's
lots of other features besides what I quoted here...



%26gt;Oh, and was I at least close in my analysis?



You mean in post #10?



I'm not sure what you meant... ;)



The behavior is very hard to explain. As I
tried ;) to explain above, the left and right master page items are separate entities. When you override a master page item on the left hand page, the object is linked to the left hand master page item. This is true even when the page becomes a right hand one. It stays linked to a master page item, but a non-existent one! So, when the side changes, you see two objects: 1) the overridden left hand master object. 2) the non-overridden right hand one.



When the side goes back to being left hand, you will only see one object, because the left hand object was already overridden. Very, very confusing...

%26gt;You mean in post #10?



I think so.



Peter